What is America?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:56 am

of course michael moore loves america
america's the only nation where you can get rich quick by talking about how much your hate your country

however a game of thrones is good

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:56 am

Psychic_Robot wrote:america's the only nation where you can get rich quick by talking about how much your hate your country

So, of the many things he's criticized, which one is America incarnate? George W. Bush? The War on Terror? Our healthcare industry? Capitalism? Of the assortment of things he's criticized, which one turned out to be America, as opposed to conservative policy? It turns out there's a difference, by the way. But certainly, it makes the rhetoric sound better when you decide everyone who disagrees with your political opinion must hate America.

That said, Michael Moore is a pretentious asshole and his journalistic integrity's pretty much shit. Which is sort of stupid, considering he doesn't need to pull editorial bullshit to validate his arguments, the facts do that well enough, but he just can't seem to help himself.

Also, a Game of Thrones is good.

PoliteNewb · Post by **PoliteNewb** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:25 am

DSMatticus wrote:
Psychic_Robot wrote:america's the only nation where you can get rich quick by talking about how much your hate your country
So, of the many things he's criticized, which one is America incarnate?

How 'bout the American people?

Michael Moore wrote: There's a gullible side to the American people. They can be easily misled. Religion is the best device used to mislead them.

Michael Moore wrote: They (Americans) are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 percent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 percent of us don't own a passport.

And Gran Torino was fucking awesome.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:28 am

I wasn't aware "the American public is dumb" (a claim with some evidence, depending on who you compare us to and how, but that's largely irrelevant here) and "I hate America," are statements with the same meaning.

Now, if someone said, "the American public is woefully undercomparing in education compared to the rest of the developed world. We need to do something to improve our education system so our future generations have greater opportunities," would you think they meant, "damn, I just hate America so much!"?

Or if someone said, "our media is over-sensationalized and does a very poor job of informing the citizens of the country of anything actually relevant, preferring to spend most of its time covering the vaginas and penii of important people. America would benefit greatly if our news stations did a better job of keeping us politically educated," would that mean, "I hate America!"?

He's saying variations of the above. If your point is that, "he's doing it rudely, so it's different," that's... not much of a point at all. I don't think anyone on the Gaming Den is allowed to complain, "but he's an ass about it!"

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:04 am

Other than MLP...

So I found this thing today...

My Drunk Kitchen.

angelfromanotherpin · Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:53 am

Maj wrote:Also, I started Veronica Mars and like it.

The first season of Veronica Mars is like a perfect jewel. The following seasons are also good, despite being only shadows of what came before.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:49 pm

Micheal Moore is not a journalist.

He is a propagandist and a political activist. (edit: that is not to say he isn't remarkably accurate in the information he reports, and considering the modern standards of journalism in the USA is probably a better source of information than many of your actual "journalists")

There is nothing wrong with that according to modern society, especially in the USA that is totally cool and awesome.

People just have an aneurysm over him because he is an effective and successful left wing propagandist and political activist.

And the left is NOT ALLOWED to play by even REMOTELY the same rules as the right. Mostly because the right consists of a bunch of whiny cry babies who always want it their way and no backsies forever whaah waah mommie the left wing hit me back.

And lets always remember the right wing's equivalents of Micheal Moore are INFINITELY sleazier and more shocking. Compared to them Moore is a fucking saint.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:07 pm

DSMatticus wrote:
Count Arioch wrote:What's the One Ring again? Never heard of it.
Well, you see, there's this guy named Tolkein, and he had these bo- hey wait a minute! God damn trolls.

No no, the one ring was a network protocol created by IBM and it was "Token" not "Tolkein." Anyway, this hobbit took the one ring and threw it into the Ethernet and the ethernet networking protocol destroyed the token ring and became the only standard network protocoll.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:22 pm

So, of the many things he's criticized, which one is America incarnate? George W. Bush? The War on Terror? Our healthcare industry? Capitalism? Of the assortment of things he's criticized, which one turned out to be America, as opposed to conservative policy? It turns out there's a difference, by the way. But certainly, it makes the rhetoric sound better when you decide everyone who disagrees with your political opinion must hate America.

if someone said he didn't hate gays but just hated that they were having sex with someone of the same gender, would you consider him to hate gays?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:51 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
So, of the many things he's criticized, which one is America incarnate? George W. Bush? The War on Terror? Our healthcare industry? Capitalism? Of the assortment of things he's criticized, which one turned out to be America, as opposed to conservative policy? It turns out there's a difference, by the way. But certainly, it makes the rhetoric sound better when you decide everyone who disagrees with your political opinion must hate America.
if someone said he didn't hate gays but just hated that they were having sex with someone of the same gender, would you consider him to hate gays?

Protip, the Right Wing is not America. It is a subset of America.

So a comparable analogy would be, if some guy said he didn't hate gays, just hated gays who were actively knifing him in the ribs, would you say he hates gays?

Answer: No.

He's a dumb fuck sure, but he doesn't "Hate America!" just because he doesn't like things that Right Wingers do any more than Ron Paul Hates America, because of Universal Health Care Legislation.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:59 pm

tzor wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:
Count Arioch wrote:What's the One Ring again? Never heard of it.
Well, you see, there's this guy named Tolkein, and he had these bo- hey wait a minute! God damn trolls.
No no, the one ring was a network protocol created by IBM and it was "Token" not "Tolkein." Anyway, this hobbit took the one ring and threw it into the Ethernet and the ethernet networking protocol destroyed the token ring and became the only standard network protocoll.

Best tzor post so far.

echo

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:41 pm

PoliteNewb wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:
Psychic_Robot wrote:america's the only nation where you can get rich quick by talking about how much your hate your country
So, of the many things he's criticized, which one is America incarnate?
How 'bout the American people?

Michael Moore wrote: There's a gullible side to the American people. They can be easily misled. Religion is the best device used to mislead them.

Michael Moore wrote: They (Americans) are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 percent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 percent of us don't own a passport.
And Gran Torino was fucking awesome.

Except, what did he say that was incorrect?
Religion is crap, and Americans are for the most part stupidly Religious.
American education system is a travesty.

He doesn't hate America, he hates the embrace of stupidity we seem to have.
Our kids are 17th through 23rd in various Academic rankings, but fucking #1 on self confidence. We're Uneducted and PROUD. What's up with that.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:45 pm

FLCL was brilliantly, absurdly amazing. And it had probably one of the best anime dubs I've ever heard.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:32 pm

sabs wrote:
Michael Moore wrote: They (Americans) are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 percent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 percent of us don't own a passport.
Except, what did he say that was incorrect?
Religion is crap, and Americans are for the most part stupidly Religious.
American education system is a travesty.

Lot of things are "incorrect" but mostly they are massively misleading. I really don't know if we are the dumbest people on the planet, (I'm still placing my bet on Greece where most of the people still think the party can't be over and the rest don't give a damn if their country goes to hell in a handbasket) but stupidity is a universal trait of man.

So let's get to the minor points. For decades the education of our youth has been in the hands of the liberal progressive elite. So for Moore to complain about the ignorance of the kids, he has to complain about his own type of people, the ones he loves so well. I know in my case and in my time (those wonderful 70's) the only major nation I would probably misplace would have been Korea, and that was only because I stupidly thought it was located where Kamchatka is but that was because of all the stories of how mind numbingly cold it was during the Korea war (I had a war surpluss Korean War bed roll which was a double bedroll insluated by duck feathers designed for many degrees below zero) and how that could happen below Japan was just not something I even considered, had to be above Japan in my mind.

Passports: The United States is mind numblingly large, compared to ... well everything else. Prior to 9/11 the entire North America was our playground, one did not need a passport to travel through Canada, just a licence and a birth certificate. You could cross the border from Mexico to the United States with the statement "I am an American Citizen." This currently exists in a small way in the Eurozone to European citizens, but that's like limiting the United States to the Northeast coast.

Oh and did I mention the United States is frigging large? It's 2,451 miles (3,944 km) between New York and LA. It's almost that distance from London to Jerusalem at 2,245 miles (3,613 km). Anywhere else in the world the "United States" would be the "United Nations" on size alone. Yes, most Europeans are familiar with what happens in the United States, but that is because what happens in the United States impacts them. I'll bet good money that the average European is just as ignorant about what happens in the Phillipines as the average American.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:47 pm

Started watching "The Winds of War." A great miniseries on WW2. Only problem, each episode is a 2.5 hr movie and there are seven episodes. I just finished the first episode and it was pretty awesome.

A lot is obviously fictionalized because, well, it's the adaptation of a book. But it's still pretty damn good.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:00 pm

Blicero wrote:FLCL was brilliantly, absurdly amazing. And it had probably one of the best anime dubs I've ever heard.

Check out Dead Leaves, it's by the same company, and basically, whatever they weren't on when they made FLCL, they added it to the coke out cocktail when they made DL.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:59 pm

Kaelik wrote:Protip, the Right Wing is not America. It is a subset of America.

So a comparable analogy would be, if some guy said he didn't hate gays, just hated gays who were actively knifing him in the ribs, would you say he hates gays?

Answer: No.

He's a dumb fuck sure, but he doesn't "Hate America!" just because he doesn't like things that Right Wingers do any more than Ron Paul Hates America, because of Universal Health Care Legislation.

sorry but michael moore hates capitalism and the second amendment that's pretty much hating america

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:06 am

America is guns and capitalism, got it.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:09 am

and christianity but yes those are our strong points

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:09 am

Psychic Robot wrote:sorry but michael moore hates capitalism and the second amendment that's pretty much hating america

Ron Paul hates the first amendment and Socialism, and that's pretty much hating America.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:16 am

Ron Paul hates the first amendment

lol

Socialism

America

lol

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:35 am

We all hate slavery, and that's pretty much hating America. Oh, wait, I'm sorry - you're under the delusion that your ideas are older, so they're a better representation of what the country should be. Helpful hint: people were pretty stupid 200 years ago. If your insistence is that "America means not learning from 200 years of experience to keep doing the same thing," yeah, I hate America.

Fortunately, America is not that, it's actually just a collection of individuals sharing a geographic location and a governing body and a set of defined, mutable rules and some loose values, and some of all this is empirically helpful to society within the framework of certain goals and some of which is detrimental (like slavery! It's a shame we got rid of that one. I mean, after all, old America had it, and old America is always right).

There's no validity to anything you're saying; what you're actually saying is, "if you wouldn't want the America we had 200 years ago, you hate America." Unfortunately for that argument, even YOU don't want the America we had 200 years ago, you just want parts of it. So you can take that little bit of blatant hypocrisy and shove it. If the only argument you can propose for why America is guns, capitalism, and Christianity is a historical one (and that's the only one that exists, really), that implies all of our historical policies are equally valid, including the ones all sane modern human beings would hate.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:43 am

yeah sorry guns and capitalism have stood the test of time, unlike slavery. they are a permanent part of america.

deal w/ it

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:58 am

Psychic_Robot wrote:yeah sorry guns and capitalism have stood the test of time, unlike slavery.

That's exactly as stupid as everything else you've said. Allow me to explain to you how stupid that is.

1750's guy: "You know, I think we should get rid of slavery."
1750's Psychic_Robot: "Slavery has stood the test of time, it's a permanent part of America. Deal with it."

Your argument can be used to validate whatever the status quo currently is. Which is retarded.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:00 am

Any chance of forking the indulgence of PR's trolling on "what is America" onto another thread? Or we can just accept that "deal with it" is a good stopping point where debate is obviously not desired or required.